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Post by damagegirl on Apr 5, 2009 23:58:01 GMT -6
I didn't say I was against stupid entertainment, I said I was against sports entertainment. I think there's a distinction. Comedy has its place in television series and what have you. But it doesn't seem to work when put together with wrestling. At least, when the WWE has done it, it hasn't worked. To a smaller extent, I've seen some comedy put into joshi, and wondered why they did that. It didn't seem necessary.
Companies that seem to go to the serious extreme aren't what I like either. I personally can't stand the shoot-style. I think it's boring. So yes, to some extent, I believe that wrestling should be entertaining. However, the ideal method of this should be to do it through having a match as opposed to any other method. New Japan forgot this and did weird stuff like Vale Tudo and feuded with K-1, etc etc. That's not my cup of tea either. I'm watching the G1 Climax now because it's straight wrestling without any other odd things going on. Why can't people figure out that's what delivers the most to the audience and to the viewers?
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Post by Digestive Ceremony on Apr 6, 2009 0:04:18 GMT -6
Damagegirl, I feel your pain. I really do. I would love to see WWE take the shackles off James Gibson, William Regal and others. I would love to see them stop hiring Hawaiian Tropic models to wrestle. I think they have the platform to bring great wrestling to the masses, and it sucks that they would rather be entertainment. I'm with you on all of this. However, what we want is irrelevant to WWE. Because, like I said, millions of people still watch the weekly TV shows and they're the most popular wrestling company in the world. Why try harder when you're already number one? That's their mentality. And until people starting tuning out in high numbers, you're not going to see a change.
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Post by damagegirl on Apr 6, 2009 0:09:57 GMT -6
Maybe I'm just unique, but if I was number one of anything, I'd never sit on my butt and just do what I've always done. I'd try to be even better.
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Post by Vsavior on Apr 6, 2009 0:14:26 GMT -6
As long as a business makes good money on a model that it has in place, it most likely won't change that model unless money drops off sharply. The amount of loss(if any) the WWE has is apparently negligible compared to the millions who spend money on the product all over the world. It was better when WWE had some competition near to it's level.
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Post by damagegirl on Apr 6, 2009 0:21:12 GMT -6
As long as a business makes good money on a model that it has in place, it most likely won't change that model unless money drops off sharply. The amount of loss(if any) the WWE has is apparently negligible compared to the millions who spend money on the product all over the world. It was better when WWE had some competition near to it's level. I'd hate to run a company that only wants to improve their methodologies because someone is competing with them. Oh well, in two or three years here we'll have a real competitor for the WWE. And it's not gonna be TNA.
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Post by MC LevaMark on Apr 6, 2009 0:25:13 GMT -6
Sadly, the only thing that would get them to try to do better would be to have another nationally televised wrestling promotion with the same quality of production, but with a different focus on what type of wrestling product they air(i.e. a more equal mix of wrestling and entertainment as opposed to a lopsided favoring of one or the other). They haven't had that since the heyday of WCW, because sadly, TNA doesn't cut it and ROH is too brand new to TV(and since I haven't seen their TV show or a recent non-Shimmer, ROH DVD, I can't give a fair comment on if the production value looks less like local cable access, not unlike the old MSG programs from WWE, and closer to picture quality of a network affiliate, since that has been a point of discussion on other message boards concerning what ROH needed to do in order to possibly be considered "on par" with the "Big 1.5") Competition always makes companies strive to produce the best product available. It appears these points were made while I was putting alot of forethought into what I was typing. ;D
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Post by Starscream on Apr 6, 2009 2:35:48 GMT -6
^^Lack of competition is making the WWE lazy. I watched the build up to Taker vs, HBK and Hardy vs, Hardy and both seemed weak to me. Or not as good as past WM feuds. Didn't make me want to see either match or even the PPV. However, a couple years back- when Eddie Guerrero won the title- that build up made me order that Wrestlemania and at the end of the night I was glad I did. When you take the mainstream approach wrestling can no longer be emotional like that win was. When you bring in more mainstream fans that don't get why winning a title could make a wrestler cry you have to go the instant gratification route. That's what the WWE does and that how they alienate the real fans for the fluff fans. The problem with marketing yourselves as an entertainment show is that no one takes you seriously...perhaps not even yourself. More than half of those G1 Climax combatants you plan to watch have appeared on Hustle. And the point there is. ...? HUSTLE is HUSTLE- it never tries to be NJPW. HUSTLE still puts on better shows than WWE most of the time Besides that, I'm not going to watch HUSTLE expecting NJPW style matches. But NJPW is still entertaining w/o being a joke. WWE could stand to learn the same. damagegirl is right. No one takes the WWE seriously, you can't run from your wrestling roots and pretend like your better than plain ol' "wrasslin" cause you got "stars" like Kid Rock and models but in the end, it's still "wrasslin'" because of all those things. You can't run from who you are. I'd hate to run a company that only wants to improve their methodologies because someone is competing with them. Oh well, in two or three years here we'll have a real competitor for the WWE. And it's not gonna be TNA. Werd.
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Post by Starscream on Apr 6, 2009 2:40:13 GMT -6
And your point is what exactly...? A lot of WWE wrestlers appeared for ROH. That doesn't make ROH a promotion filled with guys who like to clown around and stuff. It just means that a guy will take a job when there's money offered. With that being said, however, I've only watched one HUSTLE show and don't plan on watching any others. It's a ridiculously bad promotion. No point, just an interesting irony for you to consider. From your perspective it may be ridiculously bad, but it makes the most money of all the Japanese companies now with its comedy and entertainment thrown in. For about a year Yahoo! SportsNavi stopped covering New Japan events entirely and they began covering Hustle extensively. The ultra-serious wrestling companies headed by Maeda and Takada failed. Another interesting irony is you have a Beavis avatar but are against stupid entertainment. You do know apples aren't the same as oranges? You're just bringing up the HUSTLE/NJPW shared workers because you've seen people list puro shows as things they'd rather see than WM25. Nice reactionary instincts there. This isn't a puro>WWE debate. This isn't about saying that something is better than the other. If something sucks, it sucks. NJPW took a lot of hits. Silly, funny nonsense/comical pro wrestling is easier for the masses to consume. Not a lot of people can understand pro wrestling is an art but they do understand it as a carny spectacle, so naturally, the market for wrestling-lite or big giant fancy spectacle wrestling is bigger. Does that make it better? No. I'm not for super serious wrestling, super serious wrestling gets on my nerves- wrestling isn't supposed to be serious as a heart attack- I stopped watching ROH for a long time because of the "stick up it's ass" but there's a difference between being silly and being a walking, talking bastardization of wrestling. I love Sakura Hirota/Sexy Tank and funny joshi but I don't like embarrassments like athresses who can't do a dropkick to save their life. I miss the days when wrestling mattered in a mainstream wrestling product. Now the WWE is becoming a parody of itself and of wrestling and it's sad. I never watched the WWF growing up, I watched WCW- the early days pre-NWO. I stopped watching when the NWO showed up because that development bastardized wrestling and turned it into a freak show and not a shining example of wrestling's ingenuity. Sure it put asses in the seats but it "souled out".Now I'm getting into WWF from before 1997 and I find myself wondering why is it so hard to put together a HBK-Bret caliber match? Why is it so hard to actually build a women's division around women who are actually wrestlers? Why is it so hard to entertain fans with wrestling? I guess I answered my own question. Not a lot of people understand great wrestling so it doesn't sell as well.
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Post by damagegirl on Apr 6, 2009 6:30:50 GMT -6
Once my New Japan show was over, I stayed up and put in FIP Violence is the Answer. I guess I'd still prefer that to Wrestlemania 25. Or any other WWE show for that matter. Funny isn't it? When the company really really needs for the show to work, then they will put their best effort into it. But when they don't need it to work (ie, they're making a ton of money either way) then they get complacent.
If America got a national network like Samurai TV, Vince would be in deep trouble.
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Post by tswdm on Apr 6, 2009 11:05:45 GMT -6
I've probably watched more Japanese promotions than either of you have watched wrestling period. You can get off your soap box of trying to alienate everyone by acting like you're an insider. The fact is, you both said you didn't watch WrestleMania. So it gives you no reason to complain. It was a hell of a show besides a couple disappointments.
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Post by whiterabbitt83 on Apr 6, 2009 11:21:29 GMT -6
bryce's twin sister brycea would be a good match against death rey on 23
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Post by tswdm on Apr 6, 2009 11:29:41 GMT -6
No roosters.
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Post by The Throwing Rock on Apr 6, 2009 12:14:13 GMT -6
Friends, I think you're being a little harsh on the E. They made $7M off of ticket sales. I don't see how that can be considered a flop. I agree that they do too much non-wrestling segments, like that pointless Kid Rock deal, but unfortunately we're in the minority on that one.
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Post by damagegirl on Apr 6, 2009 13:56:51 GMT -6
I've probably watched more Japanese promotions than either of you have watched wrestling period. You can get off your soap box of trying to alienate everyone by acting like you're an insider. The fact is, you both said you didn't watch WrestleMania. So it gives you no reason to complain. It was a hell of a show besides a couple disappointments. Ordinarily, when people reach a consensus on something, I've found that when I watch it for myself, I find little reason to disagree with what they've said. Everyone says the Undertaker's match was awesome, okay. Everyone that I've talked to says Kid Rock was pointless, the Diva's Battle Royal was nonsense... I mean, there's no way to defend this show. They didn't air an advertised match on the PPV, they had a very pointless IC title match and yet again we get Cena, Triple H and Punk winning like they always have. The only thing I've seen in the WWE's defense is that they make money. Well, so what? That doesn't mean that their shows are enjoyable. You can actually shove crap down people's throats for years and make a lot of money from it. Just look at American Idol. Now I'm no stock market expert, but I looked at the WWE's stock since 2000 and I saw a pattern of gradual decline. I think wrestling as a mainstream industry is not as important as it used to be because it's not as exciting as it used to be. So yes, they probably did profit on this show. That doesn't mean I'm going to call their shows good when they're not. Moreover, I'm not acting like "an insider." I'm just stating my opinion as I see it. The whole thing of "don't judge a show before you see it" doesn't really apply anymore. It's far too easy to get a general impression of how the show went by reading various reviews.
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Post by tswdm on Apr 6, 2009 14:12:17 GMT -6
It's cool that you're so enthusiastic about your favorite style of pro-wrestling. At the same time, what's the point of name dropping all these Japanese shows and wrestlers to be different? I watch Japanese wrestling too, as well as American and Mexican wrestling. Your out of place "insider" references aren't impressing me. This is a WWE & ROH weekend thread. How is any of it relevent to ROH or WrestleMania? Try out this brand of trolling on WWE Universe or the ROH Message Board. Join a Mac forum and boast about how great Windows is. You end up making a lot of silly comments when you complain about something you don't watch. If one admittedly does not spend money on wrestling on any regular basis, why would anyone take this poster's comments about what paying fans want to see seriously? I guess if you had watched you'd know Punk won the #1 contender match over 7 guys. You were unhappy with the supposed abandonment of Punk's push but in your new post you say WrestleMania can't be defended because he "always wins." You don't like straightfoward wrestling but you're anti-sports entertainment. What is the middle ground for you on these subjects? Why should build up matter? You watch bootleg Japanese events after the fact, SHIMMER months later after not attending the shows, and don't follow anything in real-time. Name a better one you followed and then paid money for.
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