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Post by hamnegger on Jun 29, 2012 0:33:44 GMT -6
That is totally the issue here. She didn't ask Al for permission to speak to some plastic thing.
Normally, I would try not to rant about something like this, but ...
TNA is the stupidest company ever and I hate their guts.
This GutCheck challenge could have been a nice idea. But it's terrible.
What does it accomplish? I'm the type of guy who loved it when WCW used to bring in wrestlers from all over and I thought maybe TNA was going to try to go in that kind of direction but with a twist with all of this.
But what does it do?
Ticks off indie fans who support the better wrestlers, like LuFisto, who appear on it and get shat on. And turns TNA fans who don't follow the indies away from wrestlers who deserve attention - such as LuFisto.
It's a terrible idea!
And Al Snow is merely speaking for the sake of speaking. Nothing he says is true. The guy is an attention fiending blowhard - plain and simple.
"You need to be able to walk into an arena and make 20,000 people stop what they are doing."
That is very far from true and if he thinks that's the direction wrestling is going in, he is hurting the industry. You need to get over based on your work!
You need to be whatever his trite definition of gorgeous is to succeed?
Hey, Mr. jerk store CEO, ever hear of Fabulous Moolah? What about Judy Martin?
JUDY MARTIN DIDN'T MAKE ENTIRE ARENAS STOP?!?! ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?!?!
Cuz she ain't no Sable.
Wow. I'm hot.
I just hate it when people talk just because they think they are so clever and nothing they say is stupid, so they just ramble on, blah blah blah, "do you know what the truth is? the truth is this retarded breakdown of what it means to be pretty or beautiful or gorgeous" - and his breakdown of that, I mean, it wasn't even close to factual.
He told LuFisto she doesn't know how to work being a woman.
He is so far off and it's a sad state of affairs when people like this are responsible for the art of this industry because that is why it is suffering. All the old brass want the quick buck and easy shill and won't put people in the spotlight who deserve to get over on their craft.
TNA is for the biggest losers in the world.
It makes me sick to hear LuFisto call it the best company in the world.
Wow, ten minutes later and I am still hot about this.
And honestly?
Wouldn't surprise me if TNA wasn't interested because of her stroke history. Just a thought. But to have some overrated bafoon come out and say those awful things about women's wrestling after LuFisto puts that pathetic company over - just to have some pointless, failure of a segment.
SMH.
::vomits::
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Post by makemewannadie on Jun 29, 2012 15:00:00 GMT -6
What are you even on about? You DO need to be able to walk into an arena and grab everyone's attention. Not everyone cares about you based on what your skills set is... sometimes that's just a bonus. Case in point, Sable. Yes, she got over because of her looks, but it was also because of her CHARISMA and her unparalleled (at the time) ability to command a room/arena/whatever with a simple glance, or movement, or word. That is what he is talking about - in fact, Al Snow barely even mentioned looks in his very valid critique of LuFisto, you are really overreacting about nothing.
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Post by hamnegger on Jun 29, 2012 15:19:11 GMT -6
I am not overreacting. Al Snow spoke specifically about looks but did so very delicately calling LuFisto "attractive" and then breaking down the difference between pretty/beautiful/gorgeous (apparently in that order, whatever) and very clearly insinuated that it is the gorgeous people who make the room stop.
If you want to promote a product that values big breasts, leather, a whip, and general silence over character depth and in ring ability then that's your perogative, but if you think that will be a good direction for the industry than I vehemently disagree with you.
I'm not even a LuFisto fan because I am very critical and have pretty selective taste, but what I am is somebody who wholeheartedly believes that she could easily get over in any wrestling company.
You realize you are making the argument that the entertainment side of things is of greater importance than the artistic side of things, and that success cannot be achieved without heavily pandering to people who are more invested in gauking at women than they are appreciating the art of pro wrestling, something that has been evolving long before Sable was around.
Just because something "made money" doesn't mean that it's "the right direction" for the industry to go forward in.
Sable was super over, no doubt about it. I saw her at WrestleMania in the mixed tag match live, which stole the show because of the energy she created.
But that was also at a time when women's wrestling was at an all time low. And the novelty of silicone and silence is a nice way to kick life into something which is dead, but it's a terrible road to travel exclusively.
If you want to be stopped in your tracks by a woman go to the mall during a heatwave.
If you want to watch pro wrestling, be ready with an open mind and an open heart for the performers in the ring and react to their performance regardless of whether they are gorgeous or just plain attractive.
What Al Snow said about women's wrestling was extremely invalid and very terrible and it is what makes the industry today less artistic than it was in 1980s or what it is now in smaller organizations.
If you disagree with me, you're wrong.
I'm not saying there's no room for Sable. But I'm saying just because someone represents a different mold than her doesn't mean the fans won't get behind that person in storylines and (for me, most importantly) inside the ring.
I think the attitude Al Snow expressed is very detrimental to pro wrestling and I am steadfastly passionate in that belief.
Enjoy the never ending T&A emphasis which you apparently prefer.
And by the way, VERY VERY few people will make an entire arena stop just because of their look alone. Never in Al Snow's career could he command the attention that he is demanding from LuFisto from a single 45 second promo.
The wrestlers' craft is what needs to be valued the most. Sable is a sideshow. LuFisto is a deserving wrestler.
"PRO WRESTLING IS ART"
TNA is lame, I hope you enjoy it.
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Post by makemewannadie on Jun 29, 2012 15:35:01 GMT -6
Wow, how badly did you just judge me based on one post? I don't even like TNA, I don't watch it, I hate it. I simply UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT that in today's world, sometimes skills are just not what the big companies are always looking for. They're just a bonus. Sometimes the "entertainment side" is indeed more important than the "artistic side". Al Snow seemingly understands this too. And even the girls with the skills THEMSELVES accept this too, or they wouldn't put such an effort into changing who they are or what they look like or even adjusting their skills set for an opportunity to work there. I NEVER once said I approved of that ideology though, but thanks for assuming that about me.
I don't disagree with this at all. Kharma, anyone? Oh, but what's the main reason she's over.... she's an attraction. "A sideshow". A deserving wrestler, yes indeed. But an attraction.
And don't even get me started on this piece of **** statement.
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Post by hamnegger on Jun 29, 2012 15:43:34 GMT -6
I was surprised to hear your initial reaction to my reaction because of your gender.
Anybody who agrees that because "it's 2012" every woman wrestler needs to either be Sable-esque, Kelly Kelly-esque, or otherwise of a physical nature that immediately grabs you ala Kong or Bertha Faye is of a perspective which is detrimental to the industry.
Whoever is "ACCEPTING" (sorry for caps) something which is DETRIMENTAL to the artistic side of the industry needs to ask themselves "why do I accept that?"
Why would you "ACCEPT" something that is DETRIMENTAL?
Why don't you fight it with every beat of your heart? Why don't you believe in the people like early Sherrie Martel, Judy Martin, Fabulous Moolah, Portia Perez, Molly Holly, and the list goes on.
It's not like LuFisto or any of those ladies would strike anyone as "plain." They all make perfect pro wrestlers! Given a legit opportunity, folks will always react to a true wrestler!
I obviously don't follow TNA because it's boring and lame, but of all their KnockOuts who are the only ones without that model look? Tara and Mickie which is what the industry needs to focus on more, but they're probably being promoted because of their previous exposure which began before this Diva movement soiled things. And ODB who is someone we're supposed to laugh at. I'm pretty sure LuFisto could be just as over as ODB. There's no reason to think she wouldn't be under any circumstances. But because ODB is a bit of a joke and shows off her cleavage, she's employed and LuFisto's value of a pro wrestler is discredited by the very same company. Ridiculous. Wrong. Detrimental to the art.
Why do you just roll over for the corporations who say "No it needs to be like this and we quite frankly refuse to even try the other route."
Be the change you want to see in the world, lady.
Any woman wrestler who isn't already more concerned with her looks than she is with her character depth/in ring performance who goes to TNA after hearing what Al Snow said is in my opinion (and I'm cool with anybody disagreeing with this statement, that's fine), but they are in my opinion a sell out.
Because nobody dreamed of growing up and becoming a Knockout. And you can't bust your ass on the scene as it is today trying to improve the perception of women's wrestling just to sign a contract for a company who demands that we accept their detrimental perspective just because "it's 2012 and they're a company on tv."
Despite our disagreements, and perhaps my rush to color your perspective for the sake of argument, I do ask that you accept my apology for any offense my passionate and opinionated proclamations have caused.
"If you disagree with me, you're wrong:" gets them everytime, he he he, if you accept my apology I promise to never use that phrase again! LOL.
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Post by makemewannadie on Jun 29, 2012 17:05:46 GMT -6
I'm just curious as to whether you'd say the same thing to any other women's wrestler who has the goal of making it to WWE or TNA (why accept what's detrimental to artistic side of industry, why not fight it with every beat of your heart etc.), or whether you'd applaud them for simply chasing their dreams? What if Portia Perez had aspirations of making it to WWE or TNA and did what she thought was needed to get there?
What about those who have stood up for women's wrestling and its place in wrestling in general - say, anyone from SHIMMER? Talented workers such as Natalya, Britani Knight? Beth Phoenix? Tenille? Daffney? Serena? Ashley Lane? Would you call them hypocrites?
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Post by hamnegger on Jun 29, 2012 17:46:46 GMT -6
I don't think I would use the word hypocrite, and of all the arguments I attempt to engage in, I would respectfully be less emphatic about my opinion being the end all be all truth of the situation as I often tend to be when it comes to pro wrestling.
I think if you listen to Portia's podcasts and her youtube promos for other promotions where she is now a babyface, you would be able to recognize that Portia doesn't exactly aspire to be in that situation. I think she's made it pretty clear. She went to a TNA tryout years ago, they passed on her for pretty much that reason, and I think it kind of made her realize that it wouldn't have been what she wanted it to be anyway.
Now if a woman goes to WWE or TNA with the belief that they may potentially have the opportunity to change the perception of the division, I would applaud that.
If a woman is participating in companies like SHIMMER or ACW who are both very much trying to restore the perception of women's wrestling in their own particular ways, or anywhere else where that is a goal, just to fine tune her skills and eventually make it to one of those "bigger leagues" and doesn't actually subscribe to the notion that this T&A comes first philosophy is "a big deal in a bad way" - then there's no knocking that, either. People are entitled to subscribe to whatever perspective makes them comfortable (I guess.)
I know Alison Danger, who I do like to razz a bit but who I ultimately respect and enjoy (at times far more than other times) hates the term "sell out." I really hope I don't get banned from this board for talking about it because I get that I've sort of "pushed it" in wanting to debate a few things, and I've been at times unnecessarily obnoxious, and so my warning level is up. But I'd like to use her tag team partner "Leva Bates" as an example for what a sell out would be and then discuss how the term originated and how it evolved.
Allison Danger as much as anybody considers herself on this "movement" to change the perception of women's wrestling. That's her stance, and her partner is Leva Bates, and thus Leva Bates is connected to the furthering of Danger's philosophy.
You expect her to believe in what Danger says as much as Danger does because they are a unit. Allison Danger isn't in this sport to become a knockout or a diva, she is in it to be a wrestler. Her dream was to be a wrestler. She is a wrestler. Do people actually think signing a contract is going to solve all their financial woes in life? No, you're not going to be able to live off your little run in that promotion forever, it'll end one day, and you'll need to move on. You're already a wrestler so why abandon your beliefs just for a bigger pay day during what would be a relatively brief period in your career/life.
If you're someone who is associated directly with promoting a revolution to change the perception of women's wrestling, and then you take off to go to TNA. I mean, how is "selling out" not an appropriate description to what you've done? You've abandoned your beliefs for a better financial opportunity.
I do have a little bit more sympathy for somebody who grew up watching WWE and just wants to be there, but that's basically unfair. Face it, nobody said, "I wanna be a knockout when I grow up!" You're already a pro wrestler, and why do you want to leave that to become "a knockout?" Money over belief.
Fans used to call everybody who left ECW "a sell out." But ECW truly revolutionized the industry. When they took off it was Dungeon of Doom in WCW and those two dorky goons doing the WWF commercials. They were successful in being the the very reason why pro wrestling changed. It would not have changed if they did not force the issue. Their entire identity revolved around forcing the issue. Paul E Dangerously held being true to his artistic pro wrestling integrity higher than financial stability, which is why he had to spend all that money to get his show aired because he wouldn't conform to some channels' beliefs. Until somebody pulls a Paul E with Women's Wrestling things will never change and I very much want to see that happen.
So, all these guys who left as things were changing or had already changed and helped force those changes - guys like Taz, The Dudleys, whoever else - those guys didn't really sell out as they did move on.
But when Shane Douglas the guy they built the company around left, after making such a big deal about being different than WWF/WCW, before those changes happened, he sold out. SHANE DOUGLAS SOLD OUT.
In the same respect if AD's tag team partner leaves to go job out to some model who fits Al Snow's vision of "gorgeous" than she would be a sell out.
If SDR left because she thought she was going to be able to change the landscape and evolve the perception, then that's a different story.
I don't know why any of those other girls put in the hours they did to fine tune their craft, I don't know why they got into wrestling, and I don't know what they thought would be happening when they signed their contracts.
But if they were dedicated to changing the perception of women's wrestling like people such as AD, Portia, and SDR are, and they knew that they would have to adhere to the opposite perspective in their new environment, then they sold out. Otherwise they didn't.
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Post by JenniferL134 on Jun 29, 2012 18:02:46 GMT -6
To try and bring this back around to focusing on LuFisto and not another discussion on "selling out"...
I wish Lufi the best but if they choose not to bring her in for a Gut Check then it's their loss. I'm really looking forward to her match against Mercedes at the next FF. Looks like the program won't end there as WSU announced a match between the two for their show in September. Lufi took on Mercedes on her first SHIMMER show (can't remember the volume) I believe and earned a standing ovation from the crowd. Can't wait to see them match up again.
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Post by John Hyperion on Jun 30, 2012 7:00:57 GMT -6
You DO need to be able to walk into an arena and grab everyone's attention. If that were true there would be a roster of 6 people on the Action Soap Opera. Most of those guys barely grab the attention of the commentators when they come out. LuFisto is one of the most loved and engaging personalities any where she goes, period. The, "Oh, you're over on indie shows but you'd never be over in blah blah blah blah," has been pretty much shown to be bullshit for years considering who some top guys over there are, doing the exact same stuff they were doing in ROH and PWG and IWA: Mid South.
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Post by Crusty Ruffles on Jun 30, 2012 9:16:08 GMT -6
When I watched Al's comments, I got pretty annoyed. Came across like he graduated from the Vince Russo School of Surgical Enhancement Admiration.
Both he and JB said that LuFi was another one that was very impressive in the ring. Then, they bury her because of an admittedly mediocre two minute blurb. Wait, wrestling matters right? So bring her in for a dark match and PUT her in front of that crowd to see if she can grab their attention. You're out virtually nothing and may gain some talent. Guess that treatment is only reserved for poorly trained women from Team 3D's school that end careers.
The whole thing annoys me, but I give LuFi all the credit in the world for going. I wish she could have a big platform like TNA or the WWE to show what she can do, but having a loyal and dedicated fan base of pure love isn't too shabby ;D
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Post by hamnegger on Jun 30, 2012 10:01:36 GMT -6
It wasn't one of her better promos, but if the TNA brass were actual pro wrestling professionals and not the goony, psuedo reality show "entertainers" that they are they would realize that despite the fact that cutting promos is not necessarily LuFisto's foremost quality, she has usually gotten her mic work over. I don't know if the segment with MsChif was her idea or not, but who can deny how well she delivered it.
It's just pretty simple if you want to just stun a room on looks alone you're apparently only interested in freakshows and eye candy. And you may as well just bring them out on a WBF stage and have Jerry Lawler poll the crowd to see who the winner is. Ring work and character depth is apparently increasingly irrelevant.
I just think pro wrestling is supposed to be more beautiful than that.
And by the way Al Snow, beautiful > gorgeous, you moron.
I just hate Al Snow now. And they didn't even really bury her for the promo. They buried her for not being Sable.
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Post by Crusty Ruffles on Jun 30, 2012 11:12:19 GMT -6
The first exposure I had to LuFisto was a promo video someone sent me. Pretty sure it's out there somewhere on the internet still. It was her talking about how she was going to "FNing kill" Jennifer Blake. She just came right out and said it and then ended the video by saying "kiss my big white ass" with this child-like enthusiasm the entire time. It was so simple, yet it blew my mind.
She's an amazing speaker if a random shaky handycam isn't shoved in her face.
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Post by hamnegger on Jun 30, 2012 11:19:02 GMT -6
Exactly, she works her gimmick very well.
Apparently, Al Snow wasn't impressed with how she works being a woman.
It actually pains me to type that.
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Post by John Hyperion on Jul 4, 2012 20:13:53 GMT -6
New interview with the one and only:
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dugbark
All Hail Me
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Post by dugbark on Jul 5, 2012 8:33:22 GMT -6
Exactly, she works her gimmick very well. Apparently, Al Snow wasn't impressed with how she works being a woman. It actually pains me to type that. Exactly. I was so disappointed in the level of sarcasm shown by Al Snow. It was an attempt at humor (I believe) but came off very condescending and chauvinistic.
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